Music downloads costly

[arm53]

What in the world is a jury thinking to award this kind of money for music that can be purchased for $.99/song?

Must be Obama voters.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tec_music_downloading

[Retribution]

That criminal behavior should be punished within the penalties of the law....
I have ZERO compassion for the guy and hopes the verdict stands and he has to file bankruptcy to get out of the debt. I just wish the software companies had a powerful organization doing the same for us...

[DrScreed]

I agree Ret. It is very clear what will happen if you steal music, should be the same for Obama Administration members that stole for the tax payers but I digress. There needs to be consequences for your actions in the US, it does not happen anymore. Work hard you "Should" be rewarded not punished, instead we reward the lazy, we understand the criminals and we give rights to terrorist.

The guy should lose every asset he has and have to start over, then maybe the next guy will think before he does the same.

[arm53]

That criminal behavior should be punished within the penalties of the law....
I have ZERO compassion for the guy and hopes the verdict stands and he has to file bankruptcy to get out of the debt. I just wish the software companies had a powerful organization doing the same for us...

Man that is tough. I agree that was illegal, but a 675k penality for $30 of music is way out of whack. No matter how he distributed it. $5000 is more than enuf.

I think kidnapping can be punishable by death so should this apply to a father bringing home a child late from a visitation?

[Retribution]

Man that is tough. I agree that was illegal, but a 675k penality for $30 of music is way out of whack. No matter how he distributed it. $5000 is more than enuf.

This person stole property, distributed it which denies the right of the owner to control distribution, gave it to people who will do the exact same thing. If one person illegally copies one song with two people and they illegally copy it with two people (and each so on) in 30 days you have 1,073,741,824 illegal copies. Typically you will have 1 provider for 10 to 30 leeches. Also the copies NEVER go away - software I wrote 7 years ago is STILL illegally available.

Does your livelihood depend on your ability to control intellectual property? What if the money for everything you produced came from your intellectual property - and - it was being given away for free by someone who does not have your permission and you get nothing for it? Worse still, the government won't lift a finger to prosecute these thefts from you? Even if you provide them with the exact location and evidence? (which is the case for total IP theft under a retail value of half a million - I've called the FBI on this)

Every time people steal and distribute other people's intellectual property, it is, in effect, the same as stealing food off of their table, money for the mortgage and so on (even if not ALL of the people would otherwise purchase the product) Furthermore, it degrades the copyright and legal protections when you're aware of the theft and do nothing (courts rule that you didn't do enough to protect your copyright and, thus, it isn't considered protected and you lose the case). Lastly, it carries a societal "it is OK to steal music/software" because it is digital. If someone comes in to a store and grabs music or software off the shelf - and does it 30 times - who wouldn't say that they are guilty of 30 crimes (don't we have a three strikes policy which locks them away forever?)

No... I think he got off easy, he *should* do time in prison. One week per song/software title. Let him experience someone else taking control of his life and his ability to be a productive member of the workforce - and he has no say in it.

If this person came in to my business and attempted to steal software off the "shelf" - how here would say if he was shot and killed that it was unacceptable? Why is digital theft treated different?

[Retribution]

last line "how here" should be "who here"

[arm53]

Does your livelihood depend on your ability to control intellectual property? What if the money for everything you produced came from your intellectual property - and - it was being given away for free by someone who does not have your permission and you get nothing for it?

I see why you are angry. I work in a situation that demands that I give my intellectual ability for free depending on the situation. Out of my control. Many people make money on what I do/order/evaluate/use/repair/test/ and I NEVER get 1 red cent for the distribution of my skills from those extra providers even though their equipment/drugs/tests cannot be done/used by law without my order.

I feel your burn. Truly I do, but a $675k verdict. Worthless for all involved.

Now answer the 'kidnap' question avoided earlier. Rather the same 'overboard' thing.

Everybody watches their playground close it seems. Me too my friend. :cool:

[Retribution]

I feel your burn. Truly I do, but a $675k verdict. Worthless for all involved.

You feel my burn? You said it is part of your job, it is the agreed upon terms of being paid is that this happens? Right.... You're compensated for your work, right?

See, I'm stolen from - people take what is mine - I didn't agree to it, I didn't permit it, it isn't based upon the situation - they simply STOLE what is mine and used it as they saw fit. Were you stolen from? Did people take from you without your permission? Or is it "part of your job"? See, it isn't part of mine. I don't allow it. I can recall when I first found the first software package being pirated - the best description of how I felt was personally and intimately violated, like someone used me (and "used" is the pleasant term). That was in 2001. These scum fracking pieces of human deification whom I wouldn't piss on to save them from being on fire just aren't worth my time. They are the perfect liberal limp wristed cowards who believe what belongs to someone else they are entitled to because they can. I've had to resist the urge to write some damaging software code and put it in a honey-pot package for these people (and.... I could own their computers and gain access to everything they do as my software doesn't operate within a browser and the restrictions that come with that) - mostly because my lawyer tells me that even if they stole the software off my server, I would still be liable for the damage it would cause...

So... is this the kind of burn you feel?

As for worthless, the recording company will be a creditor in the liquidation of this person's assets - they will get something and he will be broke - and people will hear about the story and, perhaps, think that trading "$30 dollars worth of music" isn't worth becoming bankrupt over. I'd like to see him bankrupt and in jail for stealing, 2 weeks per song, 6 months for each software package. And they should be forced to work and then get nothing for it - all the money goes to someone else, after all, then "enslaved" someone else by stealing the fruit of their labor, why shouldn't they pay for their crime the same way?

And, yes, I ignored the question you asked (not even close to the same thing) - likewise, you ignored mine, answer mine and I'll address yours. My question is:

If the same person stepped in my store, grabbed my software and bolted for the door and I shot him with a gun, killing him, would you object?

[arm53]

Well, I will put this in your terms. I NEVER signed a paper or agreed to be regulated by the government, but it happened. I signed papers that agree to let a hospital bill for my services. My paycheck clears and the hospital takes it in the shorts so that they can continue services in a global pattern that is shrinking. Rob Peter to pay Paul thing going on. Reason-money. Never get kickbacks from products I use. Reason-money, and illegal for me. I obey the law too.

You live by protected PAST work. Why should that work be protected after the initial sales? I never get a cent from a continued life contract from my PAST work. Most certainly the people that fail the contract (lack of life, that happens to us all) really pay poorly, if at all. The end result for me is regulated increased liability for repair of a product that is way out of warranty.

I would only shoot to save a life, in a physical situation, as the last resort. Not for money.
I get robbed every day in your terms by the same law that makes your house payments happen.

Now what is wrong with 'huge' settlements that nobody can pay? Only lawyers make money in this realm.

Now time to answer the 'kidnap' question. You said you would. I am interested in the response.

I know. Hard to answer, if there is an answer.

Thank you my friend.............a good discussion for a great board. I feel the burn.

[Retribution]

Well, I will put this in your terms. I NEVER signed a paper or agreed to be regulated by the government, but it happened. I signed papers that agree to let a hospital bill for my services. My paycheck clears and the hospital takes it in the shorts so that they can continue services in a global pattern that is shrinking. Rob Peter to pay Paul thing going on. Reason-money. Never get kickbacks from products I use. Reason-money, and illegal for me. I obey the law too.

Huh??? ok .... not sure what you're attempting to say...

You live by protected PAST work. Why should that work be protected after the initial sales?
Do you really believe it only cost 99 cents to produce a song? How about $100 for a software package? My software packages cost in the tens of thousands to make, I expend money for a manual to be written, packaging, demos, etc - I pay for marketing and so on. I'm not talking about second hand sales (I'm perfectly fine with that - one license, one person, that can transfer). I'm talking about illegal distribution of unlicensed copies of the product. So, yeah, I invest in making products (not all of which succeed) and then I "live on PAST work" because I don't charge people $50,000 for a small software package :D

I never get a cent from a continued life contract from my PAST work. Most certainly the people that fail the contract (lack of life, that happens to us all) really pay poorly, if at all. The end result for me is regulated increased liability for repair of a product that is way out of warranty.

I don't get a penny for any contract work I've done after the work itself either - that isn't my point. There is a difference between work for hire and the rights lost while doing so and no relationship ever existing and someone stealing from me.

I would only shoot to save a life, in a physical situation, as the last resort. Not for money.
Would you object to someone else not having the same standard as yourself? I believe people have the right to defend themselves and their property with lethal force. (you really didn't answer my question, you just said you wouldn't shoot someone who was stealing from you)

I get robbed every day in your terms by the same law that makes your house payments happen.

No you don't. You don't have IP rights or a patent on it, IF you did, you could sue to get the money, since it is part of employment, the rights to the IP are given to the employer.
Now what is wrong with 'huge' settlements that nobody can pay? Only lawyers make money in this realm.
So... you're against the death penalty? No one can live through that either... Anything that bankrupts people who steal digitally, I'm all for :) Especially when they were given a chance to settle for $5,000 and they know they did it and refuse to settle.

Now time to answer the 'kidnap' question. You said you would. I am interested in the response.
Not even close to the same thing, custody is a civil law and not criminal, thus, the parent failing to return a child on time (with the intent to return the child) is merely out of compliance with the agreement. In fact (from what I've read) the parent with the child has to conceal the child from the other parent, refuse to return, refuse to allow contact, take out of state (unless it wouldn't be abnormal for parents living across state lines), or an attempt to prem alter custodial agreement - AND - the child must be gone overnight before any of this kicks in. So, no, I would not go for the death penalty because Mr Smith is 1 minute late returning Johnny.

Meanwhile, laws exist that say distributing copyrighted material is a criminal offense.

[Beancounter]

I agree Ret. It is very clear what will happen if you steal music, should be the same for Obama Administration members that stole for the tax payers but I digress. There needs to be consequences for your actions in the US, it does not happen anymore. Work hard you "Should" be rewarded not punished, instead we reward the lazy, we understand the criminals and we give rights to terrorist.

The guy should lose every asset he has and have to start over, then maybe the next guy will think before he does the same.

Sorry ARM, but I'm with Ret and Screed on this one. I'm not typicaly in favor of making an example of the one who got caught, but in this case I am. He's thrilled the verdict didn't go into the millions and is smug about the verdict. I don't feel bad that it went into six digits. Intellectual property is just that - property. It's protected and that guy stole it. Downloads are not that expensive and they are widely available. The law outlines the penalty for stealing, which he knowingly and willfully disobeyed, knowing the risks. He got slapped. I'm satisfied.

Incidentally, I know where to legally get them for 15 cents a track so that guy should really be ashamed.

[Christopher]

I don't think the fine is justified. He's going to declare bankruptcy and not pay it anyhow. I understand the desire is to get people to stop swapping songs by hammering a few who get caught, but if the RIAA pushes for fines that are so big they won't get paid back anyhow, then it shows me they don't really care about the money.

[Beancounter]

I don't think the fine is justified. He's going to declare bankruptcy and not pay it anyhow. I understand the desire is to get people to stop swapping songs by hammering a few who get caught, but if the RIAA pushes for fines that are so big they won't get paid back anyhow, then it shows me they don't really care about the money.

OF COURSE they don't care about the money, they care about the consequence of stealing what is theirs. They want to make money on what they produce, but as far as the penalty, (if I understand your statement correctly) they're not out to make a buck on that, they're out to prevent it from happening. Big fine = deterrent. Long jail sentence = deterrent. Seems the same to me.

And just because he has no intention of paying it doesn't mean he shouldn't be slapped for it, that just makes him a smug egotistical kid. OJ will never pay the settlement for the deaths of Goldman and Nicole, but the fact that he lost the civil case and was slapped with owing AT ALL still sends a message.

[Christopher]

OJ was worth somewhere near what he was penalized, wasn't he?

[Retribution]

I don't think the fine is justified. He's going to declare bankruptcy and not pay it anyhow. I understand the desire is to get people to stop swapping songs by hammering a few who get caught, but if the RIAA pushes for fines that are so big they won't get paid back anyhow, then it shows me they don't really care about the money.

Bankruptcy laws have been rewritten, he doesn't get off that easy - and - it will impact his life for the next 10 years *if* he manages to do everything the courts force him to do. He won't be able to get jobs because of this. He will end up working very hard and having most of his money sucked away by the bankruptcy settlement. Finally, his only other option is to work crap jobs and have a crap life ... doesn't break my heart. So, the money is secondary to the example that will happen to this person - but that doesn't mean the money isn't relevant (after all, the judge for the bankruptcy may require that the penalty for his criminal behavior carry through - it isn't the case anymore where you can liquidate everything)

[DLD]

Man, I could go on forever about this. The RIAA, the record labels and the artists have a point about the way consumers treat digital music as ‘free’ just because there isn’t anything tangible to hold in your hand.

Say you walk into my retail store and willfully shoplift an item. I catch you and say ‘Oh, just give it back it’s OK’. I have just given you license to do it again, and to encourage your friends to do the same. You’ll say ‘He’ll let you off if you get caught, we can’t all get caught’.

Straying slightly off topic, but similar, was an article I read in the Pitch about a local musician that got caught with kiddie porn on his computer. He’s upset that he has to go to prison for 10 years because he didn’t actually molest anybody and his psychotherapist tells him he’s just reacting to a bad point in his life when his father died.

Shoplifting in a store.
Sharing digital music without payment.
Kiddie porn.

What’s the common denominator?

We need to eliminate the invalid customer.
Make it painful both socially and financially for engaging in this sort of behavior. It’s called deterrence. Don’t come into my house without following the rules. If you do, the penalty could be severe. Most people here understand that simple concept.

The kid got off easy.

[arm53]

I lose. I need to quit shoplifting kiddie porn to remaster the sound track to the oldies. Has brought me a tidy sum for distribution on Ebay. :)

Of course a crime should have penalty. Does anybody know how much the pirate made from the illegal downloads and distribution? Tag him for the total profits and give jail time based upon the violence of hitting the download button so that Stevie Nicks can have a comfortable life of heroin addiction.

[Alix]

This kid got off easy compared to this woman...

(http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10268199-93.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5)Court orders Jammie Thomas to pay RIAA $1.92 million (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10268199-93.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5)

(The first verdict was for 222K but was thrown out.)

[Retribution]

Does anybody know how much the pirate made from the illegal downloads and distribution?

Does anyone know how much the BTK killer made from killing his victims?
Or... how much the central park rapists made from raping a jogger?
Or... how much Phelps made smoking pot?
Or... how much the Roman Catholic Church priests made from sodomizing little boys?

That greedy bastard, lets get ACORN to show up at his house and wave signs and chant angry things for us. Maybe Rev Sharpton can stump for ya.

Tag him for the total profits and give jail time based upon the violence of hitting the download button so that Stevie Nicks can have a comfortable life of heroin addiction.Hey! Sound just like those people on TV bused out to the bank's executive homes - screw them and their rights, they are just rich greed, wasteful bastards. Who cares the law was broken against them, they're rich they can afford it - the poor and downtrodden among us just NEED to pirate because we're so poor and they are so rich, it can't possibly be wrong.

Heck, just go to a beer summit with the Messiah and get a bailout for people caught pirating software from that evil nasty RIAA - I'm sure the wise latino woman will have compassion on the plight of these oppressed people who can't afford a 99 cent download verse the evil greedy filthy dirty profit hungry mongers, the rich. Heck, why stop there, single payer system so everyone can have the right to listen to and use other people's IP...

Trash the constitution and individual's rights, the collective and the group is more important than an individual's right to own and control their intellectual property - it MUST be forcibly shared, just like their money, take it away and give it to people who didn't earn it...

Change Arm can support :rolleyes:

[arm53]

Does anyone know how much the BTK killer made from killing his victims?
Or... how much the central park rapists made from raping a jogger?
Or... how much Phelps made smoking pot?
Or... how much the Roman Catholic Church priests made from sodomizing little boys?


Change Arm can support :rolleyes:

Well..........not exactly. :confused:
I just thought a let the punishment fit the crime thing should happen for downloads of stolen music.
If they can figure out the profit to the pirate then the awards and jail time could be based on that.

How this came to a discussion of how I might approve of catholic priests showing their male broom to a young boys anus womb is beyond me. :confused:

I'm sure I'll get further education. Education is good. :)

[Retribution]

Well..........not exactly. :confused:
I just thought a let the punishment fit the crime thing should happen for downloads of stolen music.
If they can figure out the profit to the pirate then the awards and jail time could be based on that.

How this came to a discussion of how I might approve of catholic priests showing their male broom to a young boys anus womb is beyond me. :confused:

I'm sure I'll get further education. Education is good. :)

The punishment fits the crime as the crime permits the crime to be repeated for eternity. Since the replication of the crime, given the source of the pirate, is unlimited, what punishment exists for a crime that has a continuous effect?

Unlike credit card theft, after the discovery, the card is canceled. Unlike stealing someone's car, the insurance (or recovery) compensates the person's loss of property. Digital theft is forever and never ends. So... the person either getting a huge fine and/or going bankrupt is fitting.

[arm53]

Digital theft is forever and never ends. So... the person either getting a huge fine and/or going bankrupt is fitting.

Yes, I guess the crime is eternal ( isn't every crime) until death. Then the Lord sorts out the mess.
I just don't find your judgement to fit the cause. Thats all I mean. Were you catholic at one time?
I don't mean to pry and feel free to not answer, as you chose to ignore the comparason earlier even though you brought it up.
Have a good night my friend and I mean that. :)

Crime is obvious, laws are not. ;)

Huh??? ok .... not sure what you're attempting to say...

Not even close to the same thing, custody is a civil law and not criminal, thus, the parent failing to return a child on time (with the intent to return the child) is merely out of compliance with the agreement. In fact (from what I've read) the parent with the child has to conceal the child from the other parent, refuse to return, refuse to allow contact, take out of state (unless it wouldn't be abnormal for parents living across state lines), or an attempt to prem alter custodial agreement - AND - the child must be gone overnight before any of this kicks in. So, no, I would not go for the death penalty because Mr Smith is 1 minute late returning Johnny.

Nothing more than that we agree upon. There are certain situations that can go overboard.

We just have different views on what is overboard. ;)

[Retribution]

Yes, I guess the crime is eternal ( isn't every crime) until death. Then the Lord sorts out the mess.
I just don't find your judgement to fit the cause. Thats all I mean. Were you catholic at one time?
I don't mean to pry and feel free to not answer, as you chose to ignore the comparason earlier even though you brought it up.
Have a good night my friend and I mean that. :)

I didn't mean eternal that way - I meant the crime allows the same crime to repeat forever - as opposed to a single instance of a crime that, once done, does not automatically repeat the exact same crime again and again.

I was raised catholic, however, I was picking on crimes that had no profit motive and I couldn't use "Well, what was the profit from car jacking..." when the car is the profit... And you made a statement about the comment, so I didn't feel like you wanted something answered (and I think you missed the point of the items I brought up - perhaps I should have used jwalking or something less capital crime in nature) - so it had nothing to do with my upbringing (except that I know about the abuse in the church) and, really, didn't say you approved of it either (merely that these crimes have no profit motive either, does that mean the punishment shouldn't be serious?)

My opinion is that, since the crime is essentially a crime that allows repeating itself for ever - a huge fine that pushes someone in to bankruptcy (or drains their accounts) is acceptable. Long after the trial, his crime will still be occurring. Long after his bankruptcy is done and over with, his crime will still be occurring. His crime is occurring as we "speak" and will continue to do so for years and years to come. A single slap on the wrist of $5,000 is a generous offer for such a long stretching impact of the actions of piracy. He turned that down and gambled, he lost and now he should be forced to pay or forced to bankruptcy.

If this was the result of any piracy - where people where forced in to bankruptcy when caught - then I would say it would be a far less occurring crime, wouldn't you agree?

Also, I'm good on the debate - hope I'm not upsetting anyone with my very forceful opinion on the matter...

[arm53]

Also, I'm good on the debate - hope I'm not upsetting anyone with my very forceful opinion on the matter...

Yes you are. You know a lot that I don't. It seems that I view different crimes in a different light. Thats OK for both of us. I am not upset with your 'forceful' view at all. We all get pissed when our wallet is involved. Please be welcome to continue to point out your opinion. I may learn something......or not.
It's all good. :)

[Christopher]

You guys know, this is supposed to be the board where we all just run around high-fiving each other, right? Nope, no disagreements on LIKC, none at all. :D :D :D :D

[Alix]

You guys know, this is supposed to be the board where we all just run around high-fiving each other, right? Nope, no disagreements on LIKC, none at all. :D :D :D :D
But, but, but where's the name calling???? Nevermind, there's too many intelligent people here that don't have to resort to that. :rolleyes:

[Retribution]

You guys know, this is supposed to be the board where we all just run around high-fiving each other, right? Nope, no disagreements on LIKC, none at all.

Well, there is no disagreement, Arm admitted I'm right and he's uneducated about the whole thing, so, Nope, nothing to see here, move along... :D :D :D

Plus, you've pretty much rolled over on the AK vs AR thing and just know the AR is a better weapon - again - nothing to see here, move along :D :D :D