What's up with Windows Vista?

[Beancounter]

I'm sure that was a humorous comment, but Mac users crack me up. We have to support a few of them at our company, and they think their machines are the best thing since sliced bread. They thumb their noses at Windows systems and Windows users, and then they get frustrated when they have problems authenticating to Active Directory and receiving email from our Exchange server.

When our Mac technical guru left the company earlier this year, I wound up hiring a Windows guy to replace him. I sent him to Mac school, and he now knows the OS X operating system very well. We laugh all the time about the Mac bigots in our company.

OS X is just another operating system. If there were as many OS X servers and workstations as there are Windows servers and workstations, there would be just as many vulnerabilities and just as many attacks. The BSD UNIX kernel upon which OS X is based is not a magic wand that is invulnerable to attack. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.


I'm sorry, I know I'm hijacking this thread, but if you could just give me a little leniency I'd appreciate it. What up with Vista? I have no experience with it so I don't know what all the uproar is about. Is it really that bad? Why?

[Brainiac]

I'm sorry, I know I'm hijacking this thread, but if you could just give me a little leniency I'd appreciate it. What up with Vista? I have no experience with it so I don't know what all the uproar is about. Is it really that bad? Why?
No problem, this has been split this off into its own thread.

There's nothing really wrong with Vista, other than the fact that it requires way too much hardware to run and doesn't offer a whole lot more than Windows XP. Many companies (including the one I work for) still do not install Vista on new workstations because we haven't found any compelling reason to do so. We pay for it, but we install XP instead.

My whole point with my earlier post is that users of non-Microsoft operating systems often tend to think that they are running a superior operating system and that people who don't understand the superiority of things like Mac OS X just aren't very bright. That was probably true in the days of Windows 95, 98, and Windows ME, as well as with Windows NT on servers, but the fact is that Microsoft has spent billions of dollars to improve the security, stability, and performance of Windows, and it shows.

I have many years of experience with other operating systems (mostly UNIX and LINUX), and for a long time UNIX was light-years ahead of Windows in all three of the categories I listed. That stopped being the case on the desktop when Windows XP was released and on the server when Windows Server 2003 was released.

We are considering using it on new laptops because Vista provides an option called Bitlocker that allows you to encrypt the laptop. That's kind of a nice feature.

The bottom line is that Microsoft over-hyped Vista. Like I said, there's nothing really wrong with it, but there is no compelling reason to upgrade to it either.

[Aaron]

I run Vista on 2 of my machines, both a laptop and PC. Other than upgrading the PC past 2 gig of memory and not being able to use most my old peripherals, there's really nothing wrong with it.

I'd agree with Brain, Mac really isn't any more 'superior'. Fact is, if you're a virus/worm writer, you're not going to target the least used operating system to spread your application. You're going to target the most widely used system in the world, which is Windows.

The only reason Mac can claim stability over Windows is due to the fact that Apple has such tight control over their base. Microsoft writes Windows to run on any number and variation of computers. Mac on the other hand is written specifically for Mac. As much as I loathe Microsoft, I have to give them credit for being able to meet such a monumental task (at least for the most part).

[emeraldinlays]

Vista seems to hate my laptop, or maybe my laptop hates Vista. Whatever the case, Microsoft Word and Internet Explorer crash constantly and I can't get the drivers for my printer to load (ironically, the laptop and printer are both HP). I've reformatted and reinstalled Vista twice now and it does the same crazy crap. I think I'll go back to XP next time just to make sure it's really Vista's fault.

[Plimpton]

The MAC guy in the commercials is really the profile of a typical MAC user. They genuinely feel they are superior to the rest of the population.

It is perfect marketing.

[Beancounter]

The MAC guy in the commercials is really the profile of a typical MAC user. They genuinely feel they are superior to the rest of the population.

It is perfect marketing.


And that is why I ask. I haven't heard complaints from people around me so much as I've seen those commercials, along with the ones from MS with the "real people looking at Vista", which is in direct response to those ads, that make me wonder what the deal is. But I have no reason to upgrade at this time, nor have I heard a lot from people around me, so I didn't even know what the commercials were even referring to as the problems. However, I have to give them credit because if I have to upgrade they've made me cautious.

I'd agree with Brain, Mac really isn't any more 'superior'. Fact is, if you're a virus/worm writer, you're not going to target the least used operating system to spread your application. You're going to target the most widely used system in the world, which is Windows.

This, and what Brain said about OS X not being superior, only different, explains a lot.

The only reason Mac can claim stability over Windows is due to the fact that Apple has such tight control over their base. Microsoft writes Windows to run on any number and variation of computers. Mac on the other hand is written specifically for Mac. As much as I loathe Microsoft, I have to give them credit for being able to meet such a monumental task (at least for the most part).


That also explains a lot. So why do you loathe MS? IT reasons or multi-billion dollar giant reasons?

[VoVo]

Vista seems to hate my laptop, or maybe my laptop hates Vista. Whatever the case, Microsoft Word and Internet Explorer crash constantly and I can't get the drivers for my printer to load (ironically, the laptop and printer are both HP). I've reformatted and reinstalled Vista twice now and it does the same crazy crap. I think I'll go back to XP next time just to make sure it's really Vista's fault.

I can't quite put my finger on it Em but I have Vista on my subterranean laboratory machine and XP on my wife's machine, up in the sunlight, and when (not if) this one crashes, I go up and use her's to accomplish the task. Very nebulous problems but I know XP works more reliably for me than Vista.

[Christopher]

I'm guessing my comment started this but didn't make it to the new thread?

I went to replace an HP laptop that seized up on me while creating a presentation almost 2 years ago. I had toyed with getting a Mac when I bought the HP, so I compared the two systems again. At the time, Vista was just coming out. The machines running Vista were really inexpensive. Too inexpensive. And the feedback in the blogosphere about Vista was horrible. So I bought a MacBook Pro.

The difference is stark. The Mac boots up in about 30 seconds. In fact, I can boot it, check my email, and turn it off before my company supplied Dell D630C even boots. The Mac has only locked up once, and that was early on, and I've never gotten it to repeat. There is no c:/ prompt on the Mac (that I can find), everything is done through the GUI. The Apple software like 'iWork' or 'iLife' costs a fraction of the Windows equivalent and does a whole lot more, IMO. iWork can view, edit, and save Microsoft Word, Excel, and Power Point files.

To me, the main difference is that the Mac is a complete system. Everything is built and tested by Mac before it ships. So the OS, the peripherals, and the add on software like for photos and word processing are a complete package. Apple owns the security side, so if there is virus software for the Mac, I don't know where to get it. The vast majority of peripherals like cameras and printers work on a Mac just by plugging them in. Installing the driver from the peripheral's manufacturer is optional.

There is some truth to what the Windows folks say about Macs not getting viruses because of the lack of volume, but the volume is increasing dramatically. I'm even starting to see businessmen with them in airports instead of just college students, though. The fact that a Mac can view and edit any document made on a Windows machine now is a huge boon. Another reason they don't get viruses is because installing things on a Mac is much different than on a Windows machine.

There are a couple draw backs to using a Mac. For starters, it wants to view all media with QuickTime, so you need to download some other software to allow it to see WMV type files, but it's not that much of a hassle. The other draw back I can think of now is support. It's a Mac and you will deal with Apple and nobody else if you need anything... and they know it.

The Mac snobs do a disservice to the platform. Even when a Mac owner points out a flaw with a Mac, they get labeled a heretic. Windows machines are so entrenched in business they they will likely have the lion's share of the market forever, but if you want to just use your computer and not worry about updates and defragging and security, then a Mac is the way to go.

[Beancounter]

I'm guessing my comment started this but didn't make it to the new thread?

You are correct, it was your comment that the DoD should get a Mac already that prompted this thread. I'm glad of it because I have a desktop and would love to switch to a laptop, but I lean towards sticking with what I know unless I can see how it's better. But like I said, I'm not in the market to upgrade right now, so I have no incentive to physically compare them. I'm just taking mental notes on Vista vs. a complete switchover to a Mac.

And the feedback in the blogosphere about Vista was horrible.

That and the damage-control MS commercials is exactly what gives me pause.

So I bought a MacBook Pro.

The difference is stark. The Mac boots up in about 30 seconds. In fact, I can boot it, check my email, and turn it off before my company supplied Dell D630C even boots. The Mac has only locked up once, and that was early on, and I've never gotten it to repeat. There is no c:/ prompt on the Mac (that I can find), everything is done through the GUI. The Apple software like 'iWork' or 'iLife' costs a fraction of the Windows equivalent and does a whole lot more, IMO. iWork can view, edit, and save Microsoft Word, Excel, and Power Point files.

To me, the main difference is that the Mac is a complete system. Everything is built and tested by Mac before it ships. So the OS, the peripherals, and the add on software like for photos and word processing are a complete package. Apple owns the security side, so if there is virus software for the Mac, I don't know where to get it. The vast majority of peripherals like cameras and printers work on a Mac just by plugging them in. Installing the driver from the peripheral's manufacturer is optional.

There is some truth to what the Windows folks say about Macs not getting viruses because of the lack of volume, but the volume is increasing dramatically. I'm even starting to see businessmen with them in airports instead of just college students, though. The fact that a Mac can view and edit any document made on a Windows machine now is a huge boon. Another reason they don't get viruses is because installing things on a Mac is much different than on a Windows machine.

There are a couple draw backs to using a Mac. For starters, it wants to view all media with QuickTime, so you need to download some other software to allow it to see WMV type files, but it's not that much of a hassle. The other draw back I can think of now is support. It's a Mac and you will deal with Apple and nobody else if you need anything... and they know it.

But when you do have to deal with them, is it satisfactory service? Because even though you can practically talk to anyone about MS, you could be on hold for hours on end and still not have the answer you need.

The Mac snobs do a disservice to the platform. Even when a Mac owner points out a flaw with a Mac, they get labeled a heretic. Windows machines are so entrenched in business they they will likely have the lion's share of the market forever, but if you want to just use your computer and not worry about updates and defragging and security, then a Mac is the way to go.

So you have no trouble going back and forth between MS based software and a Mac laptop? The commercials with PC and Mac where Mac is saying pretty much exactly that made me perk up. I don't want a hassle if I've got a Word document, for example, that I need to work on a Mac.

[Christopher]

But when you do have to deal with them, is it satisfactory service? Because even though you can practically talk to anyone about MS, you could be on hold for hours on end and still not have the answer you need.

I needed help twice. When I was moving stuff over (they have easy tools to get your stuff from your MS machine to a Mac) I couldn't get my wife's pop email from OE to the new machine. I called for help and an American answered. No overseas phone support and I don't remember being on hold. They helped me from exactly where I was without the usual "reboot, unplug, follow the guy's troubleshooting tree" etc. They helped me and then I got an email from the person who emailed me as a follow up the day after - from a real email account that I could reply to. I remember saying the extra dough for the Mac was worth it just for that phone call.

The second time my battery wasn't performing to spec. I found out there was a recall and they replaced it even though the warranty was expired. I did have to show them the recall, though. This was at the Apple store on the Plaze.

So you have no trouble going back and forth between MS based software and a Mac laptop? The commercials with PC and Mac where Mac is saying pretty much exactly that made me perk up. I don't want a hassle if I've got a Word document, for example, that I need to work on a Mac.

Sometimes the fonts don't match up exactly, but the Mac just substitutes a similar font. I write my sermons on my Dell during the week and then finish them and print them on my Mac and I am stil on iWork 2006. Both systems have FireFox, so in that regard, there is very little difference on the web.

The difference in day to day use is so different with the Mac that my wife wouldn't let me switch back even if I wanted to. Going from the Mac to the Dell is cool, but if I use the Mac a lot, going back to Windows is a little frustrating.

[Brainiac]

Don't get me wrong. I think the Mac is a fine machine. They're more expensive than a Windows PC, but a heck of a lot of people have owned them for years and swear by them.

There are lots of reasons why people dislike Microsoft as a company, and many of them are understandable. I happen to admire what Bill Gates managed to achieve. If I had the opportunity and the ability, I would probably do exactly the same things he has done. (I wouldn't mind being a billionaire). But that doesn't stop me from cussing up a storm when I have to jump through hoops when I re-install Windows on my own PC because of all of the anti-piracy crap that's built into it.

[Aaron]

One thing I can say for Mac...The MacBook Pro is suppose to be the best system for running Vista (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/irony/macbook-pro-is-the-fastest-windows-vista-notebook-317060.php). Being a developer that uses Windows apps extensively, this was exciting news. However, the price still doesn't justify buying a Mac. When I bought my current laptop, the equivalent in a Mac was 3 times the cost and still the same price difference with the laptops I'm currently looking into buying.

[Christopher]

All I can say is that once you go Mac, you don't go back :D

This has been my best 18 months of computing ever. I have created 2 customized websites with iWeb, I share pictures via iPhoto making perfectly sized pictures for emailing and/or making web galleries. I've created incredibly stunning presentations. I've edited/created audio and video files and shared them. It's been a stellar experience. Now, I could do all these things on my previous (and present) Windows machines, it's just incredibly easier to do it on the Mac.

[Ken]

All I can say is that once you go Mac, you don't go back :D

This has been my best 18 months of computing ever. I have created 2 customized websites with iWeb, I share pictures via iPhoto making perfectly sized pictures for emailing and/or making web galleries. I've created incredibly stunning presentations. I've edited/created audio and video files and shared them. It's been a stellar experience. Now, I could do all these things on my previous (and present) Windows machines, it's just incredibly easier to do it on the Mac.

A good friend of mine purchased a MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and says basically the same thing as you, except he has never commented about iWeb. (I prefer to hand code myself using PSPad and TopStyle lite for editing CSS files.) He uses VMWare Fusion to run XP on it. I have to say, it's a nice laptop.

As far as Vista goes, I bought my wife a laptop after Christmas last year and she loves it. The problem most people have with it is they are not running enough RAM and they have too much crap running at startup (this is true with XP also). You should have a minimum of 2 GB. You can install 4 GB, but it will not read it all unless you have a 64bit processor and are running the 64bit version of Vista. 32 bit has limitations that reserve memory. I recently built a desktop for my brother and he insisted on 4 GB. The machine screams and does read 3.5 GB of the 4 GB installed. The price of a MAC is just to much for me to justify, plus Microsoft products help me make a living. Aaron can vouch for that.

[Christopher]

You IT guys ought to check out my friend's resume'. Make sure to scroll all the way to the bottom!

http://www.frintner.com/Family/Mikes_Resume.html

[Aaron]

A good friend of mine purchased a MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and says basically the same thing as you, except he has never commented about iWeb. (I prefer to hand code myself using PSPad and TopStyle lite for editing CSS files.)

iWeb is about like FrontPage...For those that can't. Sorry Chris! :p


The price of a MAC is just to much for me to justify, plus Microsoft products help me make a living. Aaron can vouch for that.

Exactly. There's much more tools and business applications (not to mention games) for Windows. Mac is for those that want to look 'cool' or folks into graphics design, video production and the like. If you have the money to blow on a Mac, then go for it, they are good machines...Just doesn't make much sense for me though when a PC can get me a lot further. Though I have to admit...I'm looking harder at some of the older MacBook Pros, but only because their prices are dropping. I'd still run Windows on it though.

[DrScreed]

Vista seems to hate my laptop, or maybe my laptop hates Vista. Whatever the case, Microsoft Word and Internet Explorer crash constantly and I can't get the drivers for my printer to load (ironically, the laptop and printer are both HP). I've reformatted and reinstalled Vista twice now and it does the same crazy crap. I think I'll go back to XP next time just to make sure it's really Vista's fault.

Better go quick, my understanding is that it will not be available before long, Microsoft wants people to use Vista so they are taking XP away.

[Christopher]

iWeb is about like FrontPage...For those that can't spend the majority of their lives trying to get a web page up. Sorry Chris! :p

Fixed it for ya'!