Tiller Murdered

[twila]

From KansasCity.com
"George Tiller , the Wichita doctor who became a national lightening rod on the debate over abortion, was shot to death this morning as he walked into church services."

I have to say, it is not a big surprise to learn this has happened. Even though I based on personal moral and religious grounds have had some issues regarding the "late term" abortions he performed. Some wacko with a gun ending his life doesn't do anything to further the cause of life being precious at any stage. The person shooting him in cold blood apparently wanted to send a message but chose the wrong and sinful way to do it.
It will not change people's hearts and minds, unfortunately, it's too late for that.
Someone else will pick-up the pieces and carry on business as usual indicating once again
our society is quickly going to Hell in a hand basket.

rest of story:

http://www.kansascity.com/703/story/1225840.html

[CallawayFT5]

Well, I can't say I feel bad about it. Not that murder is right, but a lot of people in this country think that Tiller was murdering and using the courts to get away with it.

I'm surprised to hear though that it was in a church - not as much because a church accepted him as much as I'm surprised that he went to church in the first place. He better have been praying hard when he was in there...

I bet Sebelius doesn't even go to his funeral.

[Retribution]

I'm surprised to hear though that it was in a church - not as much because a church accepted him as much as I'm surprised that he went to church in the first place. He better have been praying hard when he was in there...

Bush goes to church, Obama goes to church, the Kennedy's go to church - don't know why Tiller going to church would be a surprise...

Doesn't matter if he was praying, God doesn't hear the prayers of the habitual sinner.

Tiller is dead, I'm not saddened by this at all. May not be the PC thing to do - or the nice thing - or whatever - but the murderer (tiller) got off far nicer than those he murdered. No one shoved scissors in his head, pushed a vacuum tube in his head and sucked out his brains, letting his skull crush - all without any pain meds or anything so a fully human child would feel the entire operation. The only hands these children felt with those of their murderers. Tiller got off easy (on this side of eternity) - I'm certain he's in hell (or will be) and I don't feel sad for him - or his family who's lives are paid for in blood money - or his friends or the church he went to. I hope they all see the wages of sin and his blood money for what it is and change their lives. I can tell you this, I would NEVER be in a church with a known abortionist where they were unrepentant and still performing them. They should be thankful the entire church wasn't bombed.

I'd let the guy off who did this as well - again, not exactly a PC thing or what the dutiful "pro life" person should say (although I stick with anti-abortion, I'm not pro-life - I believe in capital punishment, will drop anyone whom threatens my family seriously, etc). I believe abortion is murder, I believe the law is wrong, I don't care about the legal process or the order of the law or whatever man has made up, murder is punishable by death, protecting people from being murdered isn't (and that includes taking out abortionists). Just like if I the USA permitted slavery, I would let the slave free because the law is wrong. I see no reason to (as a jury member) be a slave to unjust laws. I do fully expect the USA to follow their laws and prosecute the guy - so I'm not talking about "changing the law unto myself" or stuff like the liberal judges do, I'm talking about being on the jury and finding the guy not guilty because the law, on abortion, is wrong.

I also don't care what message is sent by this to the world. I know for certain many abortionists tomorrow, when they go to work, won't be at ease like they were Friday.

I have no problem with what was done. I am only slightly hesitant to say I wouldn't care if this was a regular occurance. Live by the sword, die by the sword... (or live by violence - abortion -, die by violence - gun shot)

My only regret is he used a gun - this could be an "emergency/crisis" the administration uses to push through gun control laws.

[DrScreed]

Just like if I the USA permitted slavery, I would let the slave free because the law is wrong. I see no reason to (as a jury member) be a slave to unjust laws. I do fully expect the USA to follow their laws and prosecute the guy - so I'm not talking about "changing the law unto myself" or stuff like the liberal judges do, I'm talking about being on the jury and finding the guy not guilty because the law, on abortion, is wrong.

I also don't care what message is sent by this to the world. I know for certain many abortionists tomorrow, when they go to work, won't be at ease like they were Friday.



It will be interesting to see what a jury does. There is no way this guy passes on a jury trial. He has a 75% chance of walking in my opinion, as long as his jurors understand they can use jury nullification.

I do not care what the worlds says either, I have never cared about that on anything!:cool:



My only regret is he used a gun - this could be an "emergency/crisis" the administration uses to push through gun control laws.

Agreed, but still to hot of a topic for the I have to keep my job up in DC. IMO.

Bush goes to church, Obama goes to church, the Kennedy's go to church - don't know why Tiller going to church would be a surprise...

Doesn't matter if he was praying, God doesn't hear the prayers of the habitual sinner.

Tiller is dead, I'm not saddened by this at all. May not be the PC thing to do - or the nice thing - or whatever - but the murderer (tiller) got off far nicer than those he murdered. No one shoved scissors in his head, pushed a vacuum tube in his head and sucked out his brains, letting his skull crush - all without any pain meds or anything so a fully human child would feel the entire operation. The only hands these children felt with those of their murderers. Tiller got off easy (on this side of eternity) - I'm certain he's in hell (or will be) and I don't feel sad for him - or his family who's lives are paid for in blood money - or his friends or the church he went to. I hope they all see the wages of sin and his blood money for what it is and change their lives. I can tell you this, I would NEVER be in a church with a known abortionist where they were unrepentant and still performing them. They should be thankful the entire church wasn't bombed.

I could not have said it better. I wished he would have had to rot in jail but he did get off easy.

Mrs. Screed said this was not a murder, just a successful 2nd term abortion.:eek:

[Christopher]

I want to add a poll to this thread, maybe two. Do you mind, Twila?

[arm53]

Mrs. Screed said this was not a murder, just a successful 2nd term abortion.:eek:

WOW! Pause to think. :confused:

I want to add a poll to this thread, maybe two. Do you mind, Twila?

Chris if you don't do it I will! :cool: :(


http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Abortion-doctor-shot-death/ss/events/us/053109georgetiller

[CallawayFT5]

Yikes - - I'd put this on youtube in the beginning of March, and since this morning the views have gone up from about 500 to over 5000. But that's not the yikes part - the Comments section is. There are some brutal people out there... Prepare to be offended if you read them. Something else that's interesting that I just noticed, WDAF linked to it on their web site, as did Andrew Sullivan, who's been a semi regular on Bill Maher's show -

YouTube - Kathleen Sebelius defends George Tiller

[Christopher]

Go put a link to this thread on your video?

[twila]

I want to add a poll to this thread, maybe two. Do you mind, Twila?

Not at all.

Holder has ordered the U.S. Marshall's office to add officers to protect some abortion clinics tomorrow.
Makes me sick to my stomach there was a vigil held for him tonight.

Well, I can't say I feel bad about it. Not that murder is right, but a lot of people in this country think that Tiller was murdering and using the courts to get away with it.

I'm surprised to hear though that it was in a church - not as much because a church accepted him as much as I'm surprised that he went to church in the first place. He better have been praying hard when he was in there...

I couldn't believe he went to church either. He was one of the ushers.

I bet Sebelius doesn't even go to his funeral.

Not unless he left her some $ in his will.

[CallawayFT5]

The viewing of that clip is now over 13,000 since yesterday morning. Last night HOWARD STERN posted a comment, and the Huffington Post linked to it. Some people left comments demanding O'Reilly's death, which needless to say I deleted.

[Jim]

So I am the one who voted "Sad". Good chance it will stay that way too. Here is the deal with me on this. My sadness comes because of at least 2 things.

1. What this can do to the cause of Christ.
2. What it does the cause of the anti-abortionist.

In both instances I think it sets both causes back.

Just my thoughts.

Jim

[DrScreed]

So I am the one who voted "Sad". Good chance it will stay that way too. Here is the deal with me on this. My sadness comes because of at least 2 things.

1. What this can do to the cause of Christ.
2. What it does the cause of the anti-abortionist.

In both instances I think it sets both causes back.

Just my thoughts.

Jim


I can not argue with your points, I feel the same way. However, I feel nothing for the loss of his life, maybe because of his value of life. It has given the left all the ammo they ever needed to make our cause harder.

It does nothing to further the cause of Christ!

[Beancounter]

Death is not the answer. Aborting babies doesn't solve problems, and Tiller's murder doesn't solve anything. He didn't deserve to die any more than the babies he killed, but at the same time, he defined the value of life by killing babies. Should he not be just as dispensable?

[twila]

So I am the one who voted "Sad". Good chance it will stay that way too. Here is the deal with me on this. My sadness comes because of at least 2 things.

1. What this can do to the cause of Christ.
2. What it does the cause of the anti-abortionist.

In both instances I think it sets both causes back.

Just my thoughts.

Jim

I understand how you feel this way and respect your thoughts, but what I can't get passed in my mind and heart is the sadness I feel is that this man played God by taking 60,000 innocent lives.

[DrScreed]

Death is not the answer. Aborting babies doesn't solve problems, and Tiller's murder doesn't solve anything. He didn't deserve to die any more than the babies he killed, but at the same time, he defined the value of life by killing babies. Should he not be just as dispensable?


Thank you for putting it into words. This is how I feel about the whole deal.

[twila]

Death is not the answer. Aborting babies doesn't solve problems, and Tiller's murder doesn't solve anything. He didn't deserve to die any more than the babies he killed, but at the same time, he defined the value of life by killing babies. Should he not be just as dispensable?

So little attention is paid to the many girls, women who have undergone abortions later regretting what they did often struggling to live with their self imposed guilt. There are so many couples desparately wanting to adopt a child but because so many are aborted rather than carried full term and placed for adoption they cannot have one.
We would be such a better country if we concentrated more on supporting these women emotionally and financially so this could be an acceptable option for them.
I'm sure there are plenty of pro-life organizations and hopefully some religious organizations as well doing this but it needs to be more commonplace and not just with them.
Perhaps if Tiller's killer and others like him became more involved in doing something positive it would eventually change the hearts and minds of many.
IMO, Tiller did define his value of life by what he did day after day, year after year making his oath of being a healer worthless.

[Beancounter]

So little attention is paid to the many girls, women who have undergone abortions later regretting what they did often struggling to live with their self imposed guilt. There are so many couples desparately wanting to adopt a child but because so many are aborted rather than carried full term and placed for adoption they cannot have one.
We would be such a better country if we concentrated more on supporting these women emotionally and financially so this could be an acceptable option for them.

You mean if we concentrated on supporting these women so ADOPTION could be an acceptable option, right?

As I drove past picketers at Planned Parenthood every day for years, I never understood why they thought getting in the faces of girls already at the clinic would help. If there were that many voices strengthening values or proclaiming the goodness in adoption and waving huge banners of couples just dying to have that baby instead of huge banners with pictures of aborted fetuses, wouldn't that work better? I always thought that once women had made the decision to visit the clinic, their mind was pretty much already made up. Those judgmental people won't change the resolve of most of the women already there. They'd be much more productive being a POSITIVE voice for a viable alternative rather than all the negativity they can generate toward abortion. I don't agree with abortion, but they made me want to defend those at the clinic because of their glowering judgemental looks and signs. They would even have video cameras to try and shame women into changing their mind. Most people don't reacte well to having strangers negatively judge them, so how is that productive?

[twila]

You mean if we concentrated on supporting these women so ADOPTION could be an acceptable option, right?

Yes, and everything you so beautifully stated below!


As I drove past picketers at Planned Parenthood every day for years, I never understood why they thought getting in the faces of girls already at the clinic would help. If there were that many voices strengthening values or proclaiming the goodness in adoption and waving huge banners of couples just dying to have that baby instead of huge banners with pictures of aborted fetuses, wouldn't that work better? I always thought that once women had made the decision to visit the clinic, their mind was pretty much already made up. Those judgmental people won't change the resolve of most of the women already there. They'd be much more productive being a POSITIVE voice for a viable alternative rather than all the negativity they can generate toward abortion. I don't agree with abortion, but they made me want to defend those at the clinic because of their glowering judgemental looks and signs.


They would even have video cameras to try and shame women into changing their mind. Most people don't reacte well to having strangers negatively judge them, so how is that productive?

This does nothing but get a negative reaction, nothing constructive comes out of their behavior. Looking and acting like judges and executioners, crazy nuts, etc is akin to stoning people. All it does is make them look like idiots (which they obviously are) adding fuel to the fire for the actions of the other side.

[Brainiac]

So I am the one who voted "Sad". Good chance it will stay that way too. Here is the deal with me on this. My sadness comes because of at least 2 things.

1. What this can do to the cause of Christ.
2. What it does the cause of the anti-abortionist.

In both instances I think it sets both causes back.

Just my thoughts.

Jim
I also voted "Sad".

I've always thought that if people with strong religious beliefs are close to 100% correct in what they believe and that abortion is truly murder, then God will make it right in the end: the abortionists will wind up in hell and the aborted fetuses will wind up in heaven. (Hopefully not in "Limbo").

If that's the case, then why not let God deal with it in the afterlife?

If you break God's laws, God should deal with it. If you break man's laws, then you should expect man to deal with it. The majority of people in our society have not concluded that abortion should be against man's laws, so this is not a justifiable homicide.

If the laws are bad, then by all means work as hard as you can to change them. But declaring that the laws are bad and that therefore it's OK to kill an abortion doctor is not the way to go.

I realize that is not exactly what anyone said in this thread. I'm just making a general statement regarding what I believe.

[travelinman]

I agree Brain. Killing this Doctor has actually done more harm to the cause. I also believe that God will, actually HAS judged the Doctor and the shooter and that more than likely they will both find themselves together in eternity. I voted indifferent because while I would not advocate taking any life based on one's own feelings, I feel no sympathy for Tiller and ultimately believe that, as has been stated, he set the value of a human life. His was of no more value than those he took.

[CallawayFT5]

What a lot of people are not taking into consideration is that what you're saying makes sense for someone who's not a whackjob loony bin crackpot like this guy apparently is.

[J-Hawk]

You mean if we concentrated on supporting these women so ADOPTION could be an acceptable option, right?

As I drove past picketers at Planned Parenthood every day for years, I never understood why they thought getting in the faces of girls already at the clinic would help. If there were that many voices strengthening values or proclaiming the goodness in adoption and waving huge banners of couples just dying to have that baby instead of huge banners with pictures of aborted fetuses, wouldn't that work better? I always thought that once women had made the decision to visit the clinic, their mind was pretty much already made up. Those judgmental people won't change the resolve of most of the women already there. They'd be much more productive being a POSITIVE voice for a viable alternative rather than all the negativity they can generate toward abortion. I don't agree with abortion, but they made me want to defend those at the clinic because of their glowering judgemental looks and signs. They would even have video cameras to try and shame women into changing their mind. Most people don't reacte well to having strangers negatively judge them, so how is that productive?

Excellent Post! That's two in a row where you are bringin' the heat! Nice work.

Unfortunately, it appears to be much easier to simply picket, strike, boycot a business (all of which are sometimes necessary and effective) than to actually pour your life into a viable solution. The approach you mention above is conducted largely by "church" organizations. It's not surprising that the church (of which I grew up in and supported throughout) is failing in its similar approach to faith/evangelism. It crosses the line of opposing the action and makes things personal by executing judgments on people rather than the decisions they legally (at present) have a right to make. Taken to their extreme, you have the fruitless and abohorrant murder of an abortion doctor. I despise abortion and view it as murder, but respect the law of the land (though I want desperately for that law to change).

As mentioned above, if only the man who murdered Tiller would have used his energy to lobby, speak, work at a "lighthouse", or other countless ways to combat abortion, lives would have been SAVED vs. one more being taken. After a week of justified mourning, the clinic will re-open and continue to abort children. The man who murdered Tiller will rot in jail (as he should), both families will deal with pain/guilt, more viable children will die, and the ground recently gained in the debate is instantly wiped out.

How about a different two pronged attack of working peacefully and dilligently to push the issue to a state vote and supporting (through money or time served) many of the charity programs that help women considering abortion? Seems to me that actions like these would be true convictions of the heart with a concern for the individuals affected rather than a judgmental dismissal of people and their life circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, you would have to work very hard to find someone who opposes abortion more than I. Nor will you find me mourning Tiller's death any more (in fact less) than the person burned alive in a car wreck the other day just outside the metro.

I think those who rejoice in this man's death either
1. Have transferred their hate for the act of abortion to those who support it
2. Simply want to "one-up" their opponent and/or want them to "get theirs"

BC, I wish many more would take the approach you suggest above and invest in the individuals whose lifes have been turned upside down rather than picking up stones to cast (I fear the stones picked up to cast at me would be much larger anyway! :o). Afterall, if I am who I claim to be (A Christian), would I prefer Christ to grab his rod or show me mercy and a better way of doing things?

[Retribution]

BC, I wish many more would take the approach you suggest above and invest in the individuals whose lifes have been turned upside down rather than picking up stones to cast (I fear the stones picked up to cast at me would be much larger anyway! :o). Afterall, if I am who I claim to be (A Christian), would I prefer Christ to grab his rod or show me mercy and a better way of doing things?

Reasoned post, as usual. (can't give any more rep points)

I do wish adoption was a little easier (and less expensive!) - I do believe that the community and society, by and large, has responded to this. Babies, to adopt, can cost $25,000 (in legal fees because selling a person is illegal - even though older kids seem to lack these "legal fees" and can be adopted for free with little wait once you've done the basic ground work) and take months and months to get in line for one.

[twila]

At one time I believe there were quite a few unwed mother homes and even orphanages many being faith based. Has the need for them lessened because of so many abortions thus fewer babies available to adopt. I am certainly no expert on this issue and there may be quite a few still in existence but it doesn't seem like they are as common-place. There are a lot handled through attorneys who come to the hospitals and pick-up the children to deliver to their adoptive parents. No doubt, get involved with lawyers and there are going to be big legal expenses and often those adopting pay the medical expenses of the mother as well.
Women even advertise for adoptive parents to come forward to adopt their babies for expenses and a fee.
Just seems to me with all our government does as far as throwing money away on many useless projects and perks, getting people to do community service type of work, etc that they could come up with some kind of program to save the lives of these lost innocents and give them a chance at life with people who desperately want to adopt a child.
Naturally, faith based programs rather than the government handling this would be much better on many levels. It seems like we go to India, Africa, etc to help the children in dire need of merely the basic needs for surviving yet in our country we allow them to be killed before they even have a chance. I'm in favor of helping these children, don't misunderstand - they too are innocent and have no control over their circumstances.
But, how about placing more emphasis on saving lives right here at home.
Instead many politicians spend their time and energy supporting financially and otherwise Planned Parenthood, Pro-Choice groups, etc which often seems as though they are catering to the womans movement in order to get their votes. The NOW group has lobbyied Congress to the point of intimidation. Of course, that is a whole different issue in some respects but it is mainly the women who have fought for abortion to be legal and acceptable at every stage. Having babies can be an inconvenience for a lot of women getting in the way of their desire for being on an equal footing with men in the corporate world. Some manage to do both and do it quite well and I take my hat off to them.
Society has changed greatly because women believe they have been held back because men do not see them as equal in the business world. God bless those who have proven quite differently - the right way!
The youth today are way more sexually active and becoming pregnant doesn't seem to be that big of deal for a lot of them because they have the option of abortion without hardly any questions asked. It's almost as though it's well - just one of those things, one more form of birth control.
Twenty years ago a friend of mine's daughter told me she was the only one in her group of friends who had not had at least one abortion, some had already had two in their high school and college years, yet continued to be sexually active without worry.
I highly doubt this has changed in any way and what makes it so believable is knowing Tiller performed 60,000 abortions in 35 years of practice.
As far as babies being aborted while viable is nothing new. It has been done in hospitals for many years in an humane and caring way for years when the mother's life is at risk.
Not as in Tiller's clinic where a young woman testified her baby was chemically burned to death, she was given medication to start her labor and when the time came for the baby to evacuate her womb she was placed on a toilet asked to press the shoulders of the nurse and push until the baby fell into the toilet. This horrific experience was not explained to her beforehand and haunts her daily.
Anyone with a grain of humanity, sympathy or has an ounce of respect for the life of another.

[Christopher]

I also voted "Sad".

I've always thought that if people with strong religious beliefs are close to 100% correct in what they believe and that abortion is truly murder, then God will make it right in the end: the abortionists will wind up in hell and the aborted fetuses will wind up in heaven. (Hopefully not in "Limbo").

If that's the case, then why not let God deal with it in the afterlife?

If you break God's laws, God should deal with it. If you break man's laws, then you should expect man to deal with it. The majority of people in our society have not concluded that abortion should be against man's laws, so this is not a justifiable homicide.

If the laws are bad, then by all means work as hard as you can to change them. But declaring that the laws are bad and that therefore it's OK to kill an abortion doctor is not the way to go.

I realize that is not exactly what anyone said in this thread. I'm just making a general statement regarding what I believe.

God is going to make it right, but we still have to live here.

The guy who murdered Tiller needs to fry - soon.

The problem with abortion is that this country never got to vote on it. Had we, there wouldn't be nearly the strife there is.

Oh, and while a majority of Americans do believe limited and specific abortions should be legal, I don't think you could get 10% to agree with the type of abortions that Tiller did.

Also keep in mind that our founders were mostly Christians and all believe in God, yet they decided their government was oppressive and they overthrew it. Had they applied you standard, we'd still be subjects to the crown.

[Brainiac]

What a lot of people are not taking into consideration is that what you're saying makes sense for someone who's not a whackjob loony bin crackpot like this guy apparently is.

Agreed. I think this guy just likes to find things he can protest against. I read that he is also a tax protester and that he has stated that our courts have no authority over him.

I think most of the people who resort to violent acts such as bombing clinics and shooting doctors are simply whackjob loonies who would find some other reason to justify their violence if abortion weren't available as an issue for them to use. Ultimately they hurt the Pro-Life cause.

[twila]

Even his ex-wife says he is a nut.

[Christopher]

It's been my experience that a lot of ex-wives think their husbands are nuts.

[twila]

God is going to make it right, but we still have to live here.

The guy who murdered Tiller needs to fry - soon.

The problem with abortion is that this country never got to vote on it. Had we, there wouldn't be nearly the strife there is.

The people of California voted against gay marriage and it went to the 9th circuit & we will have to see what the Supreme Court does with it. Makes one wonder why put it up for a vote in the first place if deomocracy isn't respected by way of the people's vote.

Oh, and while a majority of Americans do believe limited and specific abortions should be legal, I don't think you could get 10% to agree with the type of abortions that Tiller did.



I understand 72% of Americans do not support late term abortions.

It's been my experience that a lot of ex-wives think their husbands are nuts.

You got me good on that one, Chris! :p
I guess he ranted on and on about the government and people being against him, etc.
I even heard he believed there was some sort of code embedded in 5 dollar bills so the government could track people this way.
He is one person who should not have been allowed to walk the streets considering his belifes and how he was found with all kinds of explosives some years back.
Anyone that doesn't believe he was a danger to himself or others is living under a rock.
He matches the criteria for placing away from the rest of society if not for his own good at least the safety of others.
Another one with red flags sticking out from head to toe yet, falls through the cracks.

[CallawayFT5]

Even his ex-wife says he is a nut.


Didn't his own brother say he's out of his mind too? My youtube page is overloaded with people who have made comments that are just brutal to the point that I've taken quite a few off, comments like God and religion makes people into slaves, and O'Reilly should be murdered, f-ing Christian this, f-ing Christian that and the list goes on. And ironically, they're referring to Christians as the haters.......

[Jim]

I am finding myself agreeing more and more with you lately....should I be concerned? :confused:

I also voted "Sad".

I've always thought that if people with strong religious beliefs are close to 100% correct in what they believe and that abortion is truly murder, then God will make it right in the end: the abortionists will wind up in hell and the aborted fetuses will wind up in heaven. (Hopefully not in "Limbo").

If that's the case, then why not let God deal with it in the afterlife?

If you break God's laws, God should deal with it. If you break man's laws, then you should expect man to deal with it. The majority of people in our society have not concluded that abortion should be against man's laws, so this is not a justifiable homicide.

If the laws are bad, then by all means work as hard as you can to change them. But declaring that the laws are bad and that therefore it's OK to kill an abortion doctor is not the way to go.

I realize that is not exactly what anyone said in this thread. I'm just making a general statement regarding what I believe.

[DrScreed]

What a lot of people are not taking into consideration is that what you're saying makes sense for someone who's not a whackjob loony bin crackpot like this guy apparently is.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CallawayFT5 again

[twila]

Didn't his own brother say he's out of his mind too? My youtube page is overloaded with people who have made comments that are just brutal to the point that I've taken quite a few off, comments like God and religion makes people into slaves, and O'Reilly should be murdered, f-ing Christian this, f-ing Christian that and the list goes on. And ironically, they're referring to Christians as the haters.......

Maybe because there have been so many Christian leaders coming forward more agressively in recent years using their Christian beliefs as their way of trying to change what they deem wrong in the eyes of God regarding social issues which have taken much more of a place in the political arena than in the past. They have achieved a much larger voice IMO from the media and many have their own programs on TV & the Internet so more people are noticing and don't like them in their attempt to impose their Christian values on others.
The huge evangelical movement we have witnessed has become somewhat calculated by some leaders in that they have managed to have their voices heard by the politicians who know they are a large group of voters. The pastors have a lot of influence on their followers and some would never vote for a Pro-Choice candidate on that one issue alone.

I think the influencial clergy carry a lot of clout with politicians. There is big money behind these clergy from outside sources to fund them as a way to help get their agendas noticed and carried out.
A lot of power is gained when there is a lot of money used to get it.
Trouble is many of them are seen as hypocrites for various reasons not unlike some politicians as we have seen with the many scandels lately involving televangelists.
It's no big surprise to learn of the hanky panky going on in politics and yes, there have always been wayward preachers but on many fronts this it has gone to a much higher and public level in recent years.
Seems like they are using one another - people not only resent this but see it as inapproprate as well.
I think this is at least part of the reason we are seeing so much bashing and blame toward Christianity.
Just MHO.

[DrScreed]

I am finding myself agreeing more and more with you lately....should I be concerned? :confused:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jim again

Yes you should!:D

[CallawayFT5]

Maybe because there have been so many Christian leaders coming forward more agressively in recent years using their Christian beliefs as their way of trying to change what they deem wrong in the eyes of God regarding social issues which have taken much more of a place in the political arena than in the past. They have achieved a much larger voice IMO from the media and many have their own programs on TV & the Internet so more people are noticing and don't like them in their attempt to impose their Christian values on others.
The huge evangelical movement we have witnessed has become somewhat calculated by some leaders in that they have managed to have their voices heard by the politicians who know they are a large group of voters. The pastors have a lot of influence on their followers and some would never vote for a Pro-Choice candidate on that one issue alone.

I think the influencial clergy carry a lot of clout with politicians. There is big money behind these clergy from outside sources to fund them as a way to help get their agendas noticed and carried out.
A lot of power is gained when there is a lot of money used to get it.
Trouble is many of them are seen as hypocrites for various reasons not unlike some politicians as we have seen with the many scandels lately involving televangelists.
It's no big surprise to learn of the hanky panky going on in politics and yes, there have always been wayward preachers but on many fronts this it has gone to a much higher and public level in recent years.
Seems like they are using one another - people not only resent this but see it as inapproprate as well.
I think this is at least part of the reason we are seeing so much bashing and blame toward Christianity.
Just MHO.


You know what my opinion is? That the people are just nuts... You disagree with them, therefore they're rabid about it and they want to destroy you. There are so many people in this country who are just so rabidly anti God and anti religion that they just can't control themselves.

[Christopher]

Look at this disgusting headline:

Do religious conservatives share blame in Tiller's death? (http://m.usatoday.com/Nation/363558/)

[CallawayFT5]

This is a good one, from what appears to be a doctor -

YouTube - Dr. George Tiller you reaped what you sowed.

[twila]

Interesting he referred to Tiller as "Dr.Tiller" at the very beginning and then "Mr. Tiller" a few times and finally simply "George Tiller".
I wonder if he were to call Tiller Doctor he feels it would be an insult to his profession so therefore did it on purpose.
.

[travelinman]

Why is everyone throwing in the terrorist word ? Tiller was not a terrorist. He was a murderer all be it, within the law ( although that's disputable ) . The man who shot him was not a terrorist, he was a murderer ( not disputable) . Next thing you know, the clerk who gets your Micky D order wrong will be a terrorist. The reason this offends me is that by labeling every act of violence a terrorist act, we minimize the true terrorist actions.

[Jim]

Why is everyone throwing in the terrorist word ? Tiller was not a terrorist. He was a murderer all be it, within the law ( although that's disputable ) . The man who shot him was not a terrorist, he was a murderer ( not disputable) . Next thing you know, the clerk who gets your Micky D order wrong will be a terrorist. The reason this offends me is that by labeling every act of violence a terrorist act, we minimize the true terrorist actions.

Some valid points TM, however, if the Micky D clerk gets my order wrong by adding onions then I am not so sure the terrorist label doesn't belong!!!

[Christopher]

I have a labcoat and a tie and I'm no doctor. That video plays to the left's stereotypes and while I shed no tears for Tiller, that dude is inciting copycats. If abortion = murder = wrong, the murder is wrong. Period.

Why is everyone throwing in the terrorist word ? Tiller was not a terrorist. He was a murderer all be it, within the law ( although that's disputable ) . The man who shot him was not a terrorist, he was a murderer ( not disputable) . Next thing you know, the clerk who gets your Micky D order wrong will be a terrorist. The reason this offends me is that by labeling every act of violence a terrorist act, we minimize the true terrorist actions.

If the guy who killed Tiller intended his actions to intimidate other abortion doctor's behavior, then he is indeed a terrorist.

I do agree that the word gets overused. When I was in CA in April, my friend's wife wanted to call a guy who cut some AT&T fiber optic lines on purpose a terrorist. Her reasoning was that since the phones were down, emergency services were impacted. I told her he was just a vandal.

[DrScreed]

Some valid points TM, however, if the Micky D clerk gets my order wrong by adding onions then I am not so sure the terrorist label doesn't belong!!!

If you are dining in, no, but all bets are off if he does it in the drive thru and on the freeway!

I have a labcoat and a tie and I'm no doctor. That video plays to the left's stereotypes and while I shed no tears for Tiller, that dude is inciting copycats. If abortion = murder = wrong, the murder is wrong. Period.



If the guy who killed Tiller intended his actions to intimidate other abortion doctor's behavior, then he is indeed a terrorist.



Right!

[travelinman]

If the guy who killed Tiller intended his actions to intimidate other abortion doctor's behavior, then he is indeed a terrorist.

That's a big IF. Since nobody knows yet what was in the man's mind ( Maybe never will ) it's a little early to say he was a terrorist.

[twila]

Look at this disgusting headline:

Do religious conservatives share blame in Tiller's death? (http://m.usatoday.com/Nation/363558/)


This helps?

http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1234737.html

[Christopher]

This helps?

http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1234737.html

Phil Kline is now pretty much useless.

[twila]

It's his own fault. No sympathy from me. Wonder how much money he will get for his legal defense fund? Very cozy with the religious right and they were very much behind him.

[Beancounter]

The religious right is always there to support their own, so I'm sure they'll be pandering for his defense fun. I remember getting a rather large and detailed booklet in the mail when he was running for re-election, issued by Kansans for Life or something like that, dedicated to getting him back to his fight against Tiller. I agree that Tiller got off on a technicality and all the BS surrounding the contention that he was "tried in court and acquitted" to be just that - BS, but Kline was not the guy for the job. I found him useless then and even more useless now.

[twila]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Very well said.

[CallawayFT5]

WICHITA CLINIC CLOSED FOR GOOD -

http://news.aol.com/article/abortion-clinic-closes/517441?icid=main|htmlws-sb|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2 Fabortion-clinic-closes%2F517441

[DrScreed]

I heard a feminist today complain about it closing. She said something about it being a blow to Women's Rights. I wondered why she did not open a clinic if is so tragic:confused:

[twila]

I saw a photo of a group of women from N.O.W. on the star website who were dressed in their N.O.W. tee-shirts holding banners in support of Tiller. I don't believe they could have looked any less feminine if they tried. What a bunch.
As for the one on TV complaining I say: Hello! Has it ever entered your mind what this man did is not acceptable to the vast majority of people otherwise there would be tons of clinics open for businesses just like Tillers? Not just the 2 remaining making the big bucks.

[Beancounter]

I wonder how many more feminists there would be in the world had Tiller not murdered roughly 30,000 baby girls.

[twila]

No s...:rolleyes:

[Retribution]

To honor tiller, free abortions

http://townhall.com/columnists/JillianBandes/2009/06/09/the_philly_abortion_giveaway?page=full

[DrScreed]

To honor tiller, free abortions

http://townhall.com/columnists/JillianBandes/2009/06/09/the_philly_abortion_giveaway?page=full


OMFG!

What in the hell is wrong with these people?

[Retribution]

OMFG!

What in the hell is wrong with these people?

I suppose it is like us going to a gun range to shoot and getting free admission....

[Beancounter]

I suppose it is like us going to a gun range to shoot and getting free admission....

It's only the same if there are doctors who perform abortions behind the targets. Otherwise it's the difference between killing babies for free or killing paper for free.

Is anyone else bothered by the way it's worded - "giving away free abortions"? Abortions are performed, not given away. They are providing the service of taking out babies for free, they are not giving away puppies. "Giving away free abortions" makes it sound like they're giving away free ice cream cones.

[DrScreed]

Great news, a Dr. from Omaha is coming down to run Tillers killing mill!:(

[travelinman]

Could it be because abortions are not so much a service provided as a product to be charged for, in their eyes ?

[DrScreed]

Coming here because NE will not let you kill a baby if it is viable! KS says the same unless it endangers the Mother's life, but emotional trauma will allow for the killing.

[twila]

Great news, a Dr. from Omaha is coming down to run Tillers killing mill!:(

Where did you get this info? I heard today the family would close the clinic and no other doctor would be taking over for Tiller. :confused:

[CallawayFT5]

Where did you get this info? I heard today the family would close the clinic and no other doctor would be taking over for Tiller. :confused:

I heard that too. He used to work with Tiller. 980 reported on it.

[Beancounter]

Could it be because abortions are not so much a service provided as a product to be charged for, in their eyes ?

Absolutely, and that's what bothers me.

I heard that too. He used to work with Tiller. 980 reported on it.

I heard that the family didn't want the clinic re-opened, either, so 980 was saying which - that the clinic will be run by the guy who used to work with Tiller, or that the family won't re-open?

[CallawayFT5]

I heard that the family didn't want the clinic re-opened, either, so 980 was saying which - that the clinic will be run by the guy who used to work with Tiller, or that the family won't re-open?

All I heard yesterday was that the "doctor" planned on taking over where Tiller left off, and that he wasn't sure yet whether he was going to do it form Nebraska or open a "clinic" in Kansas.

Meanwhile, I read somewhere last night that there was a "clinic" somewhere in the country who in remembrance and honor of Tiller, for most of the day yesterday did abortions for free.

People suck.................

[twila]

All I heard yesterday was that the "doctor" planned on taking over where Tiller left off, and that he wasn't sure yet whether he was going to do it form Nebraska or open a "clinic" in Kansas.

Meanwhile, I read somewhere last night that there was a "clinic" somewhere in the country who in remembrance and honor of Tiller, for most of the day yesterday did abortions for free.

People suck.................

Was there some talk about Overland Park Clinic taking over? Seems like I heard something about that.
There is a doctor in Colorado, good friend of Tillers who whas on TV saying he and Tiller discussed cases frequently and he was sure the clinic would reopen. This guy has his own clinic so I don't see him coming to KS. He did say someone will take Tiller's place.
I've also heard pro-life groups want to buy the clinic and land to turn it into a museum of sort because they consider it hallowed ground due to the death of the many innocents because of Tiller.

Absolutely, and that's what bothers me.



I heard that the family didn't want the clinic re-opened, either, so 980 was saying which - that the clinic will be run by the guy who used to work with Tiller, or that the family won't re-open?


I thought it was interesting when the announcement first went via the family attorney that it said "he family" would not be involved any longer in the running of the clinic. Also read Tiller's father performed abortions as well. Makes me wonder if Tiller's family worked at the clinic too.

[Alix]

Meanwhile, I read somewhere last night that there was a "clinic" somewhere in the country who in remembrance and honor of Tiller, for most of the day yesterday did abortions for free.

The Philadelphia Women’s Center gave away free abortions Tuesday in honor of Dr. George Tiller, the abortionist who was murdered last week by an anti-abortion extremist.

A worker at the clinic said that an unspecified number of free abortions had been performed during the day, but that they had stopped giving them away by late afternoon...

link (http://www.onenewsnow.com/Blog/Default.aspx?id=562692)


Now that's just sick!!! Unspecified number of murders for one murdered person???



I thought it was interesting when the announcement first went via the family attorney that it said "he family" would not be involved any longer in the running of the clinic. Also read Tiller's father performed abortions as well. Makes me wonder if Tiller's family worked at the clinic too.
I think, if they were, they would have continued in his name.

[Christopher]

Act now - operations are standing by!

I'm Billy Mays....

[Alix]

Act now - operations are standing by!

I'm Billy Mays....
Oh, now, come on! That is very bad!!!

Funny, but, bad!

[Christopher]

Get a load of this!

Anti Abortion Ebay Sale Might Be Pulled (http://www.nbcactionnews.com:80/news/local/story/Anti-Abortion-Ebay-Sale-Might-Be-Pulled/_T6LncFMTkGgDxWwc8SV9Q.cspx?rss=764)

DES MOINES, Iowa - Anti-abortion activists are planning an online auction to raise money for the Kansas City man charged with killing Wichita, Kan., abortion doctor George Tiller.

http://www.nbcactionnews.com:80/news/local/story/Anti-Abortion-Ebay-Sale-Might-Be-Pulled/_T6LncFMTkGgDxWwc8SV9Q.cspx?rss=764

[DrScreed]

Get a load of this!

Anti Abortion Ebay Sale Might Be Pulled (http://www.nbcactionnews.com:80/news/local/story/Anti-Abortion-Ebay-Sale-Might-Be-Pulled/_T6LncFMTkGgDxWwc8SV9Q.cspx?rss=764)

DES MOINES, Iowa - Anti-abortion activists are planning an online auction to raise money for the Kansas City man charged with killing Wichita, Kan., abortion doctor George Tiller.

http://www.nbcactionnews.com:80/news/local/story/Anti-Abortion-Ebay-Sale-Might-Be-Pulled/_T6LncFMTkGgDxWwc8SV9Q.cspx?rss=764

OK, Des Moines has a problem with this, but they are all ok with a President that supports infanticide...

[Christopher]

Judge ponders Roeder's 'necessity defense' (http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1641534.html)

[DrScreed]

I wonder how that will go???

[travelinman]

I would wager that it won't go well.

[Beancounter]

I certainly hope it doesn't go well, it's even worse than the twinkie defense!

[DrScreed]

It did not go well, the Judge said, not today!

[CallawayFT5]

The judge is allowing him to argue voluntary manslaughter, which could be more on the order of a 5 year sentence vs life in prison - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34810725/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts

[Beancounter]

The judge is allowing him to argue voluntary manslaughter, which could be more on the order of a 5 year sentence vs life in prison - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34810725/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts

That's disgraceful, and just opens the door for more lunacy - like killing abortionists is less than killing a "real" person. I don't miss Tiller, but it's not a lesser degree of murder in any way.

[XXX]

it is a medical procedure, nothing more. anyone saying that the good doctor deserved to bekilled is no different than the nut that pulled the trigger. simple answer, if you are anti abortion dont get one.if you are pro abortion then you have that option. stop trying to impose your morality on others.

[Beancounter]

it is a medical procedure, nothing more. anyone saying that the good doctor deserved to bekilled is no different than the nut that pulled the trigger. simple answer, if you are anti abortion dont get one.if you are pro abortion then you have that option. stop trying to impose your morality on others.

It's so, SO far from having a 'simple answer'. And those who are anti-abortion are not necessarily imposing their morality on others, they are fighting for the lives of human beings.

[DLD]

it is a medical procedure, nothing more. anyone saying that the good doctor deserved to bekilled is no different than the nut that pulled the trigger. simple answer, if you are anti abortion dont get one.if you are pro abortion then you have that option. stop trying to impose your morality on others.

Regardless of if you think people are imposing morality on others there is a significant portion of the people that admire what Roeder has done.
However I think people like Roeder are little different than those brown skinned fellows that like to carve into people's heads and blow up our domestic airplanes due to their religious views.

[twila]

it is a medical procedure, nothing more. anyone saying that the good doctor deserved to bekilled is no different than the nut that pulled the trigger. simple answer, if you are anti abortion dont get one.if you are pro abortion then you have that option. stop trying to impose your morality on others.


Yes, it's called a medical procedure because a licensed medical professional performs it, but when performed in back alleys before becoming a legal procedure, it was called a crime.
To me, it doesn't matter what PC title it holds, it's the taking of a human life by another no matter how you slice it or what you choose to call it and a sin in the eyes of the God I believe in.
On the other hand, I do not condemn those who have made the decison to have one and so thankful I've never been faced with it personally. Those having multiple abortions as a form of birth control and convenience sake dweserve to be condemned because they have no respect for the miracle of life.
I do however, believe the law has gone way too far in allowing partial birth abortion. As a woman, mother, grandmother and simply a human being, unless it's a matter of life or death for the mother I find this to be criminal and beyond comprehension.

[CallawayFT5]

it is a medical procedure, nothing more. anyone saying that the good doctor deserved to bekilled is no different than the nut that pulled the trigger. simple answer, if you are anti abortion dont get one.if you are pro abortion then you have that option. stop trying to impose your morality on others.

Ya know, I can't say that I'm literally 100% against it in all situations, but to me, stating so matter of factly that "it is a medical procedure, nothing more" kinda blows me away a little. Albeit rare, there are aborted BABIES that are so far along that they'd be viable BIRTHS if simply given the chance. Can you state with a straight face that shredding a 7 or 8 month old fetus "is just a medical procedure, nothing more"? Really???

[Christopher]

Executing death row inmates is a medical procedure, too.

[J-Hawk]

Can you state with a straight face that shredding a 7 or 8 month old fetus "is just a medical procedure, nothing more"? Really???

(Resident Grammar Nazi forewarned. . . the below is typed in my "anglo-dialect" - as opposed to a negro dialect - which I can turn on and off when I want to! It in no way is grammatically or "spellatically" correct! )

Already been down that path with him on the other site. . . and yes. . he can. . . scary huh?!?!

It is not as "simple" as he states it is and I'm not interested in imposing my morality on anyone.

His warped morality is his own. I AM however, interested in protecting life and I view the infant in the womb as a life. He does not. He doesn't need it, nor did he ask for it, nor does he care, but I genuinely pity him in that regard.

When ohhh when will people stand up and become accountable for their own actions?!?!

[twila]

When ohhh when will people stand up and become accountable for their own actions?!?!

When Hell freezes over..... maybe?

[Beancounter]

(Resident Grammar Nazi forewarned. . . the below is typed in my "anglo-dialect" - as opposed to a negro dialect - which I can turn on and off when I want to! It in no way is grammatically or "spellatically" correct! )

LMAO!! Thanks for the warning, but it's ok - you have to speak to your audience.

I AM however, interested in protecting life and I view the infant in the womb as a life.

When ohhh when will people stand up and become accountable for their own actions?!?!

I'm with you there on both counts.

[Christopher]

Tiller had a bruise from the gun on the side of his head. Roeder shot him in the head with the gun up against his head and the blood splattered on the church wall. Roeder needs to cook. Does Kansas have the death penalty for adults as well as the unborn?

http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-story-roeder-tiller-testify-012710,0,2291680.story